פורום ארץ הצבי

Yooval,
Even though the Christians are celebrating the birth of Jesus it really is nothing but a celebration. Similar to when you celebrate your own birthday. The Christians don’t have Mitzvoth. The fact that a Christian accepts Jesus is only a matter of social convenience for him, nothing else.
Har-Sinai however is a different matter. In Har-Sinai G-D revealed himself to millions of people (600,000 males + women, children and foreign nationals too). The testimony of these witnesses is the force behind the Jew’s commitment to Mitzvoth.

In all other religions G-D “revealed” himself to only one person. If everything is just a silly fabrication then it becomes puzzling that ONLY JUDAISM makes the claim that G-D revealed him self to a whole nation, because otherwise it would have made sense for other nations/religions to make a similar claim. Why then such a claim was never made by anyone but the Jews? Think about it.

Yooval,
Having to convince a multitude of people of one thing or another may indeed be an easy thing because everyone likes to identify himself or herself with some ideology or another. This is apparent when one examines the many political parties, clubs, affiliations, organizations, cults, religions… the list is long. However, as I mentioned before, MITZVOTH do not govern the lives of these people. These people are free to lead their lives as they see fit.
Historically speaking, if you wanted to convert a nation into Christianity then you would have to integrate some of that nation’s old beliefs into Christianity and on top of that you would have to coerce them by force to relinquish their other beliefs that Christianity chose to not accept.
My point is that, contrary to what you said, it is practically impossible to convince people to accept anything as far reaching as Judaism where Mitzvoth and Halacha govern every aspect of the Jew’s life.

My last point is that until Mashiach comes there will not be an IRREFUTABLE proof of Har-Sinai, nor of the authenticity of the Torah, not even of the existence of G-D. If such a proof did exist then only a mad man would transgress even the slightest Mitzvah.

Yooval,
I didn't try to ''prove'' to you that since Judaism is beyond proof then therefore Judaism is true and authentic. You are making too many false conclusion and derivations. My only point is that ultimately one is required to believe, Emoona in Hebrew. Therefore I, nor anyone else, can PROOVE to you anything.

Another example of your illogical though process is when you compare Judaism to the lives of a monk. Those people who choose to be monks are a TINY fraction of a nation's population. Judaism is a way of life for a whole nation.

With respect to your belief that the Mitzvoth that the Rabbis constituted have nothing to do with what the Torah said then instead of proving you otherwise then I'll ask you a simple question: HOW DO YOU KNOW?
My guess is that you don't actually know but only think that you know because you heard someone else saying the same thing.

My next point is that at times, violence is the only way to resolve a conflict. Just look at the wars that Israel had to wage in order to survive. Your automatic reaction to violence mirrors Christian philosophy, which in opposition to Judaism, is just a philosophy and nothing else. Judaism recognizes that there are times when one has to resort to violent solutions.

As for the article, since you didn't understand the point of it then I will have to make a small comment on it. The article talked about 2 types of human beings. One of these human beings is a person who can't look beyond his immediate existence and immediate needs. For this man ''SIR HABASAR'' is the center of his existence and everything else revolves around it.

Yooval,
I'll make a comment regarding '3' and '4' . A Jew accepts Mitzvoth because he believes that G-D commanded them to the Jewish people. As to how these Mitzvoth be performed, the Jew relies on other Jews to teach and explain these Mitzvoth to him. Keep in mind though that the Oral Torah, as well as the written Torah was both transmitted to the Jewish people from G-D.

As to '3', a Beith-Din that delivered a death sentenced more than once in every 70 years was considered a murderous Beith-Din. Even though I am not knowledgeable about these matters I can tell you that the Halacha associated with each law will not permit the kind of practices that the Iranian government is implementing.

Yooval,
“Koshernes” stems from the Torah, not from the mere fact that someone says one thing or another.
As to the fact that you are a Jew who believes in other things, I can assure you that all that you said has already been said thousands of years ago. You don’t believe in G-D, nor do you believe in Har-Sinai - you are not the first.

Also, the biblical text is not “full of mistakes” as you put it. It is simply that you don’t understand the text and you also never made an effort to learn because of preconceptions that you can’t overcome. At least you should know that for 3500 years there were Jews who were smart enough to also see those “mistakes”, despite the fact that they didn’t attend whatever university you graduated from. You could suggest that in fact they were all stupid but I would say that it is highly unlikely.

Yooval,
Note that the word Koshrness in my previous note was under double quotes, which means that I referred to the external, as well as to the internal meaning of the word. Therefore, everything that a Jew does and everything that he believes in is, as I said before, based on the Torah, not on someone’s opinion.

As for the belief that the events in Har-Sinai are true, my belief stems from two sources. The first is Torah and the second is based on the collective testimony of the Jewish people that has been represented by our celebration of this event, which is Shavuot.
Is it possible to say in words that the Torah was an invention and that Shavuot is a fabrication? – of course it is possible, you said it already several times. However, if you were INTELLECTUALY honest, and if you were to learn Torah, then you would have realized that the Torah is divine and you would not have denied its authenticity.

As for the “mistakes” in Torah, you can’t expect me to explain to you all the things that you don’t understand about Torah. If you were to learn and ask a Rabbi then those “mistakes” will not look like “mistakes” anymore.

Your previous notes suggest to me that you think that Judaism is like other religions that tried to impose themselves in order to force people into subservience. This is of course nonsense because if it was indeed the case then why would there be a need for commandments like Shabat? Not to mention the fact that in the Tanach the deeds of a ruler who sinned became punishable by G-D. Therefore, Judaism is antithetical to your thesis.

Yooval,
To only address your last point, what do you mean when you say that Judaism wishes to impose itself?
I can understand if you were to tell me that certain people want to impose themselves, but what does it mean when one says: “Judaism wants”?
Are you saying that the book of Torah has political aspirations? Are you saying that the 7th day of each week has an ego and that this day suddenly decided to call itself “Shabat” and try to impose itself on humanity?

Yooval,
We are clearly not going to come to a final conclusion at this stage.
However, since you are saying that it is people who invented the commandments of Judaism then I think that it is worth while to contemplate as to what was their motivation for instituting 613 commandments and how did these commandments came to be accepted by the Jewish people throughout a period of 3500 years.
Even if you don't believe in anything the question is academically relevant.

It's not a question of whether there are 613 or 300. The question is fundametal. Why were these commandments instituted in the first place and how did they come to be accepted for 3500 years by the Jewish people.

Yooval,
This is a simple question. If it was G-D that gave us those commandments then there is no problem. However, if it was people who invented those commandments then why would these people invent 613 commandment, most of which ''don't make sense'' and then succeed in making the Jewish people accept them for 3500 years?

For the last time, the people who worship monkeys and cows are the same as those that worship Jesus. They just worship. These people have no commandments and they are free to live their life any way they like, as long as they don't break any laws that might get them in jail.

In that respect, Judaism is different from ALL OTHER monotheistic religions. The definition of monotheism may include the worship of a single G-D but it may also include the worship of a single monkey or a single lunatic who may think and say that he is the son of G-D. Judaism however has Mitzvoth and in that respect there is not a single parallel to it in Man's history.

Yooval,
THEY don't have Mitzvoth.

Anyway, I think I said all that I wanted to say at this point.

Yooval,
I think you mat benefit from the below article:
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/sde_chem/vaserma...

To David Sivan,
My question to you is this: What is the most basic and fundamental point in science that makes science a true and a viable thing?
You will probably say that since the natural world exists and functions according to certain laws and since we can make certain prediction, based on our understanding of these laws, then it follows that science is true and that anything else is un-true, unless it can be explained scientifically.

I say, let's take a step back. How did everything come into existence? How was the first Atom and first Molecule created. Do you believe that science can answer this question?
The next question is WHY everything is created. Do you also believe that science can answer this question?

If you will think about it you will find that there are things that are beyond science and definitely beyond your own wisdom. If you want to become wiser, and since you are a Jew, then the closest and best place is Judaism.